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  1. #1
    Citizen Dreams's Avatar
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    Default Vac Pump Discussion Thread

    Here is a thread for the purpose of CIVIL discussion surrounding the most effective vacuum pumps to use for the purging of oil. Please keep the thread on topic, and as constructive/progressive as possible. If you have any inquiries or comments surrounding the discussion, please post them here as opposed to sending pm's so that everyone can gain the knowledge that is being sought after in this thread. After all, this is a progressing technique that no one person has all of the answers to....

    I will start this off with my previous video of a single stage, 5 cfm, 30 micron pump with silicone tubing, and a mityvac pump to test the pressure....The pump is hooked up to a pyrex desiccator which is made to withstand the pressure of a full vacuum. (very thick borosilicate lab-ware!). All of my materials were sourced online except for the pump which was bought locally to save on shipping costs.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPaOrX2Zikc"]YouTube - Single Stage Vac Pump + Desiccator[/ame]

    If you are going to be using an electric pump to create a high pressure vacuum, you want to make sure that your chamber is able to withstand the pressure. I have seen some people use a mason jar or a foodsaver container, and it has worked for them without breaking. All I can say is that mason jars, food saver's, or most other ordinary objects that you might use which is not meant to be used as a high pressure vacuum chamber is NOT SAFE. I would just like to stress this point because it seems that many people see this as the part of the setup where they can cut costs. High pressure vacuum chambers have a decent price tag attached to them for a reason....


    I have used the electric pump as well as the pump-n-seal and mityvac. So far, the best results have come from the electric vac. I realize that the single stage will lose power eventually, and am looking into a 2-stage for the future, but this pump will have to suffice for now. Don't get me wrong, the pump n seal or mityvac will produce a much better product than without the use of a vac, but both the easiest process and the best product come from the electric pump with a safe vacuum environment.

    I am investigating getting a 2-stage, 6cfm pump with any micron rating of 25 or under. I am not to sure as to the specific company's reputations as of yet for the 2-stage pumps, but if you look on ebay, you can see a general price range for each manufacturer, and more or less match the quality of the maker to where they fall in the price range for that category of pump....

    edit: I forgot to add that I believe the main benefit to the 2-stage pump would be a 2nd motor that kicks in to help the pump consistently pull the deep vacuum that we are looking for. With a second motor, it reduces the stress on the first motor and your pump should last longer when used repeatedly. That being said, as you see in the video, a single stage pump can pull to the desired Hg, imo the only question would be for how long?

    Would love to see some video footage/pics of some of the other setup's out there.... I know people here are using the lexan sheets over steel pots, or clear polycarbonate vac chambers... lets see em!

    I'm sure that many people here have great ideas for the improvement of this setup/technique.... Ways to construct a similar setup at a lower cost or a better setup at a similar cost, or whatever it may be..... so lets talk vac!

    Remember: keep it on topic, constructive, and progressive!

    edit: here is a short video on Proper/Safe Vaccum Chamber Procedures for a glass desiccator (supplied by FEAR420). Thought this deserved to be in the OP.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y57KvfGsB6w"]Using a Desiccator - YouTube[/ame]

    edit 2: Another video posted in the thread by Detective Dank that should be included in the OP. Explaining how vacuum pressure works in a very simple way.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMil2smliVs"]Let's Play Bill Nye: Stop the Rock! 02 Under Pressure - YouTube[/ame]
    Last edited by Dreams; 09-14-2012 at 08:11 PM.

  2. #2

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    Great start to the new thread! Im also looking into the two stage pump I think it will work alot better for frequent use

    Check out how i make my vac purged oils

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qy9wXgLzprU"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qy9wXgLzprU[/ame]

    I hope this helps guys!

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  3. #3

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    MityVac all the way, baby! Holds me a solid -25hg with a mason jar and suction cup... however the time it takes to get to full vac... causes the purge to suffer I've noticed. By the time it takes the hand pump to hit full vac, the oil probably isn't in a full molten state anymore like when I started. I really need to invest in the electric pump...

    It does justice though when you don't want to shell out some dough on a pump, however... speaking of which, anyone know where to get a solid electric pump, for a reasonable price? I've seen them around amazon sittin' above $70... but maybe someone knows a hidden gem for shopping pumps?

    Here's my tek, with the MityVac
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=za26ntAaeWc"]YouTube - How to make Butane Honey Hash Oil Vacuum Purge (In 1080p)[/ame]
    Last edited by HurfDurf; 05-16-2011 at 10:18 PM.
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  4. #4
    Resident citrusblue's Avatar
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    @budderguy that was a cool video, the end result looked delicious

    i'm very interested in vac purging tech and have not yet done it.

    the other vac thread is/was full of good posts i'm sure, but there was alot of nonsense in between and wayyy too many pages to really get the full depth of it.

    i hope this thread gets filled with good videos and posts so eventually i can learn more and start vac purging to further improve the quality of my oil.
    Last edited by citrusblue; 05-16-2011 at 10:22 PM.
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  5. #5

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    Did the the tech thread get deleted? It Was still useful in my opinion
    Just Dab

  6. #6
    Shape Shifter yoitscheefs's Avatar
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    I currently use a pump-n-seal and mason jar on a coffee warmer for my oil vaccing needs yet I do agree that a more complete (and quicker) vac process can be achieved with an electric pump. I can still reach the consistency that I personally strive for with this more cost effective setup, but at the price of speed and ease, as stated before. I have also used the mightyvac, but didn't enjoy the workout that came with the one I had (it was a real bitch to maintain a proper seal of pressure).
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  7. #7
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    Stizzo the thread was requested to be trashed because it was so uber confusing in turn causing the creator to receive a ton of private messages containing questions and arguments about his teq and he is extremely busy right now with school and doesn't have the time to field questions or debate right now.

    The informaiton was all over the place and was more of an evolution of vac purging so hopefully this will be a more percise place to find quick information for vac purging and as Dreams requests please lets keep this civil.
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  8. #8

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    Dreams, i thinks its best if u add the best information into your original post here and there. it will make it as one concise how to.

    with that said, we need some of the info back, but i managed to creep into beer's photobucket and find his original drawings, add these into your original post as a basic of vac purging, which can follow with everything about electric vacing.






    thanks beer, best info out of that thread imo. Keep in mind that he is talking about Sea level, which we are not generally at, and why vacs should be deeper than -25 Hg and temperatures higher than 90 *F, around 150-175 *F depending on strain.

    In terms of vac purging and electric vaccing, i have experience with PNS, mityvac, and industrial electric vaccuums used for food packaging, i have done fairly extensive research into regular A/C refridgeration vacuum pumps as well. So let me drop any knowledge i have.

    For electric vacs in our application, higher CFM or super low micron ratings is not necessarily needed from my understanding, but the ability to pull a micron level of 50 or lower is ideal. I found this math regarding micron calculations in an refridgeration a/c manual on google books:


    This obviously shows 50 micron pulls -29.91 which is good enough, so 25 microns and 15 microns may not even be needed for our application.

    However, keep in mind sea level changes in your area, which in my opinion, at these high levels of vac, are eliminated when errls are heated reasonably etc.

    Next on to CFM, IMO people are getting high CFM for no reason. In my research a 1.5 CFM vacuum pump is sufficient unless you are heavily short on time. Using:

    http://www.onlineconversion.com/flow_rate_volume.htm

    • 1.5 cubic foot/minute = 42.475 270 499 liter/minute
    • 3 cubic foot/minute = 84.950 540 998 liter/minute
    • 5 cubic foot/minute = 141.584 235 liter/minute
    • 6 cubic foot/minute = 169.901 082 liter/minute


    This means that any chamber we are using, which are generally desiccating chambers (chambers meant for strong vacuums) like these:

    or Dreams':


    ...are generally only around 10 to 20L in volume (dreams' is a 5.8L Pyrex from what i saw), and therefore would take around 30 seconds to displace the air (free air displacement is what CFM is a rating of). Chambers can be polypropylene/polycarbonate or glass, the latter being more expensive from what i understand, and a good sized "plastic" desiccator is around $75. In terms of actual desiccant, which is a moisture-ridding substance you place inside desiccators, you don't need it unless you want budder. Chambers can come with a stop-cock valve that holds the vac and can release the vacuum as well, but this can take a while, so using a flow regulator like Dreams' did with his MityVac can help release vacuums if you don;t have a stop-cock or don't want to use it.

    Looking at a pump brand such as Mastercool: http://www.mastercool.com/media/vacpump-flr08_web.pdf you can see the specifications for their model 90060 and 90066 are perfect, now someone show me where to buy one. Other brand i have heard that are dependable are Robinair, Cooltech, and Just Better (D-Note). The model 90060 is around 220-300 depending where i Google, which is pretty price, and 90066 like 150 on Amazon. This is where my question comes in, higher CFM single-stage pumps are cheaper than lower CFM two-stage pumps, which is why I think CFM is less important than 2-stage deep vacs, but can anyone prove why?

    This thread needs to be heavily modded imo, stop the page count from growing and recycling of information. once the stuff is taken from this post i have no problem deleting it.

    Enjoy all.

    edit: oh and Dreams, i think you can remove the pin and unscrew the gauge from your MV and just add it to your pump or to a T fitting like so:
    Last edited by s1oop; 05-17-2011 at 01:52 AM. Reason: sooooo much info
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hashmasta-Kut View Post
    vac all day? i make oil in 30 minutes if i need it now

  9. #9
    Citizen Dreams's Avatar
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    S1oop I fully agree that we should have some of the original knowledge here to help people get a grasp of what is going on. and I am definitely encouraging the more knowledgable members to hop in here and help restore some of the evolution of the vac tech in a slightly more concise method.

    I Love that diagram of beer's and it was one of the best aid's to help me in understanding how this process really works. But I believe the diagram needs to be slightly tweaked for the substance we are attempting to de-gas. I believe that we have proven through trial and error that we need to reach a higher vacuum pressure than 25 Hg to fully de-gas our oil. IMO we need to reach a temperature of around 165-170F, and a vac pressure between 28 and 29.5 to bring all the gasses to the surface and fully release them into the surrounding vacuum environment.

    Great info on the Chamber's and pumps as well, exactly the type of stuff we need I have seen those polycarbonate ones used, and the work great! as for the pumps, I agree that the higher cfm's arent really needed for our purposes, I just always like keeping the options for a bigger chamber open without getting a new vac, and I will never need over a 5 or 6 cfm.....as long as it is a quality pump, it should do the trick.

    edit: yes, i'm aware that I can put the gauge straight onto the tee valve that I have, and I may decide to do that in the future, but I kind of like the slow and controlled release i can get by using the release valve on the mityvac thank you for the heads up though
    Last edited by Dreams; 05-17-2011 at 01:01 AM.

  10. #10
    Citizen Dreams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by s1oop View Post
    dreams, can you elaborate on the mityvac release valve idea, i have an old semi-fucked one that i was going to use the gauge and pitch, but if it is salvageable for good reason...
    If you check out my video, I use the pressure release on the mityvac to release the pressure in the chamber.... I didn't do it slowly for purposes of time in the video, and because there was nothing in the chamber that I was worried about. The other ways to release the pressure of the vacuum on my setup would be to remove the hosing from the lid of the desiccator..... or locking in the pressure, removing the hose and slowly releasing it from the hole on the hole on the top of the desiccator, or you could unscrew the cap on the other fitting going into the pump..... i just find that the mityvac is the most controlled way to release pressure, and I can watch how quickly I am releasing.

    the stopcock's on the desiccators do release the pressure, but at a rather slow rate.... can take over 5 minutes to fully release.
    Last edited by Dreams; 05-17-2011 at 02:02 AM.

 

 

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